devin
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Post by devin on May 4, 2023 1:32:45 GMT
There's recently been a fair bit of online discussion regarding the financial viability (or non-viability) of non-commercial/art/niche comics. This naturally leads one to wonder how the situation could be improved. If it can be improved, that is.
I thought I'd throw out a few half-baked, maybe vaguely related notes on the subject and see if anyone felt like joining in.
Sorry in advance for the long post.
Okay, so, if the goal is to increase the readership pool, you could a) expand the art comics bubble to include more readers from the alt comics bubble. Recruit more comics people, in other words. Or you could b) expand the readership to include people from outside comics fandom.
As far as recruiting comics people goes, I think great reviews are important. By great I don't mean positive or sympathetic, I'm talking about reviews where an articulate and insightful reviewer has spent time with a work, really engaged with it, maybe figured it out a little, and then shares that experience in relatively plain language. At best this provides people with a path into unfamiliar territory and or a way of approaching potentially challenging works. I've found these kind of reviews immensely helpful when it comes to art and literature. You don't come across them much in comics (or art and literature, for that matter), but they do exist.
Whether you're going for comics people or non-comics people, convincing publishers, retailers, distributors, etc. that there's a market for niche comics (if there is one) is probably also absolutely key. Some kind of collective marketing and distribution effort might be helpful here. Like Image Comics for off-centre alternatives?
On the downside, a big part of Image's success was Todd McFarlane capitalizing on his status at just the right time. I'm not sure anyone in art (or whatever) comics carries that kind of pulling power.
The Cartoonist Co-op is trying something similar to the above, I suppose. But it feels kinda different. Also, an anti-capitalist marketing cooperative sounds like the setup for a comedy sketch.
Regarding reaching out to non-comics people, I'm reminded of two things:
1) Ben Katchor mentioning that he's not sure if comics anthologies etc. are the best places for people to read and discover comics.
2) Gary Groth saying that whenever a comic breaks out of the comics bubble, it's because of the subject matter and not the fact that it's a comic.
I think the above two points are related. They bring to mind a few thoughts.
I should imagine the alternative weekly newspapers were a great way for people to discover cartoonists (and for cartoonists to make a living) before they went the way of the dodo. Some news and culture websites probably filled this gap for a while, but they seem to also be on the way out. Vice, as an example, is allegedly days away from bankruptcy. Is there anything on the horizon to replace them when it comes to publishing comics outside of the bubble?
Katchor is an interesting example of someone who seems to have found his audience almost exclusively outside of comics fandom via alternative weeklies, a Jewish magazine and an architectural publication.
World War 3 Illustrated does well with the zine crowd because the zine crowd is comfortable with old school leftist politics.
Ron Regé, Jr. has new-age kids responding well to his work. This makes sense considering how may pages the man spent translating Helena Blavatsky and theosophy into comic form.
Similarly, what I like to call bong-water comics (friendly, playful psychedelia sometimes mixed with light esoteric philosophy) has a good sized audience outside of comics amongst what I can only assume are a bunch of mushroom munching Joe Rogan listeners. Think Jesse Moynihan, some of the other Adventure Time story boarders and Brian Blomerth.
As far as I'm aware, Maus was the only breakout commercial success from the RAW stable. Again, subject matter. Of course RAW itself did very, very well.
I also see no reason why people into certain types of experimental art wouldn't also be into certain types of experimental comics. They'd get them without much hassle, I reckon.
So is the answer getting appropriate comics material into crossover publications? Avant-garde architecture zines? Experimental art magazines? Music websites? Esotericism podcasts? Or would anthologies targeted at these groups work?
Jeez that really was long. I've been ruminating for a while. And I told you it was half-baked!
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devin
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Post by devin on May 4, 2023 13:50:22 GMT
Wow, on rereading, you can tell I wrote the above between 3 and 4 in the morning. I'm going to try and summarize in a slightly more coherent fashion. Also, I'm going to stick with the term art comics. You could use niche, experimental or non-commercial as stand ins. Okay the market for art comics is pretty small. Retailers, distributors, etc. tend to be suspicious of their sales potential. Yet I'm convinced that there is in fact a larger latent audience for art comics than currently thought. Who is that audience and what is the best way to reach them? Is it predominantly comics people? If so, are more and better venues for review and discovery the answer? Would some kind of collective cartoonists marketing and distribution effort help? Something in the mold of Image Comics? Are non-comics people a good bet for increasing the reach of art comics? Would getting comics content into non-comics venues (magazines, shops, websites, podcasts, etc.) help here? Perhaps taking advantage of a crossover of interest, like experimental art, architecture, psychedelics, music or whatever? Is there any possibility of something coming along to replace the alternative weekly newspapers as a platform for discovery and reading? Regarding the last two points, I know Ben Katchor has wondered out loud if dedicated comics publications like anthologies are perhaps less than ideal places to be reading comics. Gary Groth has also underlined the importance of subject matter when it comes to finding success outside of comics fandom. And that's about it, really. Any thoughts? Am I wrong in even thinking there might be a bigger audience for art comics waiting in the wings somewhere? Surely if RAW could do it in the 80s, someone could do it now?
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Post by eheitner on May 4, 2023 13:56:21 GMT
I think this is a useful thread! I also think there might be some use distinguishing between what is meant by art comics? Like, stuff that is aggressively avant garde, stuff that is sort of about the medium itself, or just stuff that is "artsy" and independent and made by an artist with a vision and a desire to communicate?
Anyways I think the answer to all three is getting outside the current comics audience bubble.
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luke
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Post by luke on May 4, 2023 14:48:50 GMT
This is negative and not helpful, but at my most hopeless it feels like the only time truly independent or "underground" culture breaks the threshold it has to do with some unplanned social media "virality" like an endorsement by a celebrity or influencer or the wildfire-like spread of a piece of a text that users deem reflective of themselves and therefore relatable. Or a work is bestowed a sense of mainstream legitimacy by being optioned for film/tv or something. Granted, the examples that come to my mind aren't comics but stuff from the world I work in, prose literary fiction, e.g., small press books by unknown writers like Shane Jones and Carmen Maria Machado that broke through to larger audiences owing to some of the above factors.
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Post by eheitner on May 4, 2023 15:10:12 GMT
Carmen Maria Machado...who's now writing comics for DC Comics!
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Post by arecomicsevengood on May 4, 2023 20:46:27 GMT
My first immediate reaction is to say that there is no way to make art comics more commercially viable besides public arts funding.
I think, historically, that for an artist to be remotely successful they need a large degree of passive support. Being in the newspaper is probably the best possible example for what I mean - the burden of getting an artist paid goes through a mediating network where maybe most of the readers don't give a shit about one particular strip, but the editors see comics as a value-add. Or as a kid growing up in the nineties I bought CDs, not all of which I ended up loving, because I'd heard they were good and I thought I might like it, and then I spent time with that purchase. This was the golden age of music sales. I think, in the current neoliberal landscape where artists are told they need to cultivate a passionate audience, we forget how important passive consumption is. You need people to pick up the work that are not going to like it. All the talk about how people should support their favorite artists, in an era where everything is available for free or at reduced cost, I think neglects that you can only ever make a living if people who don't like your work are paying for it accidentally.
(Or I'm fascinated by the idea of Playboy being a really high-paying gig back in the day - I think we can assume most buyers were more interested in the nude photography than they were in the Jack Cole cartoons.)
In some ways you can even argue that this is tied to the anthology model, which is basically how manga works in Japan. People pick up stuff not knowing what it is. But in the U.S., anthologies suck to read, in part because of the cost, and how much you are paying for, and how much a reader resents work they don't like because we've been raised to view ourselves as curators of our own taste. And we as Americans benefit from being able to only be exposed to the stuff that emerged from that model and was able to be successful.
(We need to get the right wing on board with the idea that there needs to be arts funding in the U.S. before our culture is completely replaced by weeb shit, but right now the Marvel movie machine is pumping along in a way that it still feels like we're maintaining an imperial hegemony.)
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Post by mikesheawright on May 4, 2023 22:26:58 GMT
i think sticker price has a lot to do with this topic. i really like the print quality of all these riso, offset, whatever books but anyone who's a non-head is going to balk at a $40 anthology of weird shit they've never heard of. personally i'm hoping that the boutique printing fad goes away soon and we get back to cheap black and white stuff. stuff that feels accessible as something that kids and teens and college kids can actually make and distribute themselves because they've also come across it in the wild. lets get spinner racks back into record and vintage stores, local self-published stuff. get young people excited to seek and discover these kinds of things. a lot of comics to me feel like they're made for other comic ARTISTS instead of just anyone interested in narrative art. let's make more things people would be willing to take a risk on for $5.
i feel icky about this kind of "growth" model of having an "audience", even though i understand it as necessary for making a living doing something. but i also in a corny and privileged way feel like you should just love making the thing and setting it loose in the wild without worrying about having a full on career in the arts? most of the full-time artists i know are miserable about the kinds of creative sacrifices they have to make and the kinds of jobs they have to pick up in order to draw all day instead of doing something else. i don't know what the alternative is though, non-profit work? teaching? running for local office? be a masseuse?
also neither repubs nor dems give a fuck about arts funding so imagining a world where there are more public resources for this stuff seems like a pipe dream to me.
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Post by cartoonysam on May 5, 2023 0:03:14 GMT
i think sticker price has a lot to do with this topic. i really like the print quality of all these riso, offset, whatever books but anyone who's a non-head is going to balk at a $40 anthology of weird shit they've never heard of. personally i'm hoping that the boutique printing fad goes away soon and we get back to cheap black and white stuff. stuff that feels accessible as something that kids and teens and college kids can actually make and distribute themselves because they've also come across it in the wild. lets get spinner racks back into record and vintage stores, local self-published stuff. get young people excited to seek and discover these kinds of things. a lot of comics to me feel like they're made for other comic ARTISTS instead of just anyone interested in narrative art. let's make more things people would be willing to take a risk on for $5. i feel icky about this kind of "growth" model of having an "audience", even though i understand it as necessary for making a living doing something. but i also in a corny and privileged way feel like you should just love making the thing and setting it loose in the wild without worrying about having a full on career in the arts? most of the full-time artists i know are miserable about the kinds of creative sacrifices they have to make and the kinds of jobs they have to pick up in order to draw all day instead of doing something else. i don't know what the alternative is though, non-profit work? teaching? running for local office? be a masseuse? also neither repubs nor dems give a fuck about arts funding so imagining a world where there are more public resources for this stuff seems like a pipe dream to me. I'd like the boutique printing niche to keep thriving but also for it to coexist with cheap B&W comics printed in a similar manner to the classic underground comic books or modern comic newsprint anthologies like Smoke Signal and Scarff. The latter would be more accessible to a new reader and might draw them in enough to be interested in taking a chance with the higher-priced art comics.
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Post by bakertoons on May 5, 2023 3:53:16 GMT
Adding my two cents, in addition to what Gary Groth said about the subject matter, I sometimes think that the recurring characters featured can also matter as well. There are examples of beloved characters like Snoopy and Garfield, but I noticed that even in webcomic circles people can get attached to specific characters, even if they don't read the comic itself that much.
Regarding anthologies, in principle I think they're fine, but the manga anthologies in Japan is a different beast than the kind seen here in the States, as discussed by others in the state. Part of me appreciates the boutique printing niche, but at the same time I feel like they do push out smaller creators doing cheap B&W stuff, which can make comics inaccessible for those who don't want to spend 40 bucks on a comic (not to mention, creators who can't afford to use those expensive printing services).
I'm intrigued by Smoke Signal and Scarff. Are there other similar anthologies I should look out for?
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Post by dominocorp on May 5, 2023 5:14:10 GMT
I think of something like Anthology Film Archives in NY. They've been around for 50 years now, they make no gesture towards booking crowd pleasing films (even artsy crowd pleasers) but often times I go there for something obscure and its packed...because people follow what Anthology does and trust it. There's no bells and whistles to their programming, just a continual slog year after year of booking honest films and making sure they're presented with dignity, which organically built into something sustainable. To me, that's it, that's all you need to do! Just accept that it's a slog, which is fine if you're genuinely into it. The important side note is: once you get to that point of sustainability, you don't leverage it to drift towards the center.
Will Anthology Film conquer the world? No. Is it a place where lots of people go every day to see works of art for a very low ticket price that are challenging and meaningful to them? Yes.
Lots of people in comics think of things in a top heavy way, wanting to have the (overall, still modest) success with fringe stuff that Anthology has...but they want it on day 1 of their crowdfunding campaign, rather than on year 50 of operation.
Underground art breaking through into the 'mainstream' (whatever that means today) seems pointless to me. But that same work being accessible for people when they are ready to access it is very important.
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Post by eheitner on May 5, 2023 13:11:10 GMT
FWIW Anthology Film Archives is a 501(c)3 non-profit with a wealthy board of directors that probably brings in very significant donations. No mention on their website of foundation or government grants or support, but wouldn't be surprised if there is that too. Edit to add: Not that they necessarily started out with all that support!
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devin
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Post by devin on May 5, 2023 17:30:41 GMT
eheitner Avant garde, plays on the medium itself and work with an artistic vision (including some commercial stuff) all count as art comics in my book. Funnily enough, it was that second category, reflexive formal stuff, that got me back into comics after a decade-long hiatus. An interest in literary structure suddenly pivoted and became a renewed interest in comics. luke You're probably right. Even the Maus example fits: Spiegelman had his breakout, it had a lasting effect on the credibility of the medium, but pretty much zero influence on the sales figures of his contemporaries. arecomicsevengood I get the arts funding model. It has a lot to recommend it. Yet I do worry that following literary journals and the like into the academy-grant-complex would only lead to further isolation. What's that line about contemporary poets doing not much more than talking to themselves while resenting a lack of eavesdroppers? You make a really, really, really good point re: artists being subsidised by default purchases, like in a magazine, newspaper, anthology or whatever. It's not, however, a particularly encouraging point. Considering the current media landscape, that is. Also, I thought it was common knowledge people only ever read Playboy for the articles? mikesheawright You should try living in a country with a weak currency. Gary Panter's last thirty-something page offering was set at a price point that exceeded my monthly electricity bill. Literally. Don't feel icky. Putting more good work in front of more eyeballs is a good thing, isn't it? It's also important for building up that supportive and subsidizing infrastructure arecomicsevengood mentioned. An infrastructure that gives artists the room to be artists and not have to run around playing capitalist without capital. Even if you take the day-job model, which is 100% valid and generally necessary, art, for me, develops its importance when read or viewed. So that's another reason for growing an audience. cartoonysam True. Book as artefact is cool, maybe just a little too dominant at the moment. No matter what, riso sure is purty. bakertoons Dave Sim claimed the key to Cerebus's success (when it was successful) was a clockwork schedule and a recurring character. Okay, he was talking about the direct market in the 80s and early 90s, but I feel the point most likely still holds. It probably has something to do with the nature of the medium? Also, I find some work only gains its poignance and artfulness with repetition. Peanuts, Krazy Kat, even Ben Katchor's Julius Knipl. dominocorp Yeah, what you say is definitely true. Doing the work, whatever that may be, and doing it well, is what it's about. But seeing Joshua Cotter complain that Nod Away 2 (published by Fanta) sold FOUR copies in a year makes me think there's got to be a better way of doing things. Never mind mainstream success..... four copies!!!! (And that's 100% not a dig at Fantagraphics, btw.)
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Post by bakertoons on May 5, 2023 18:24:49 GMT
bakertoons Dave Sim claimed the key to Cerebus's success (when it was successful) was a clockwork schedule and a recurring character. Okay, he was talking about the direct market in the 80s and early 90s, but I feel the point most likely still holds. It probably has something to do with the nature of the medium? Also, I find some work only gains its poignance and artfulness with repetition. Peanuts, Krazy Kat, even Ben Katchor's Julius Knipl. dominocorp Yeah, what you say is definitely true. Doing the work, whatever that may be, and doing it well, is what it's about. But seeing Joshua Cotter complain that Nod Away 2 (published by Fanta) sold FOUR copies in a year makes me think there's got to be a better way of doing things. Never mind mainstream success..... four copies!!!! (And that's 100% not a dig at Fantagraphics, btw.) Consistent schedule definitely matters. My current webcomic releases every Monday-Wednesday-Friday at a clockwork (and I'm currently queued up to July 2024, so I can guarantee that for over a year from now). There's some truth to what Sim said.
Also, I had to look up the "Nod Away 2" claim. Just yikes. I self-published several paperbacks and all of them sold more copies than "Nod Away 2". Self-publishing isn't easy (you have to pay upfront for printing, distribution, keeping tabs on sales, etc.) but this just convinces me more and more that there's not much value in having a major publisher pick up your comic unless you get a very good deal upfront, including (and especially) marketing.
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devin
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Post by devin on May 5, 2023 19:11:09 GMT
Also, I had to look up the "Nod Away 2" claim. Just yikes. I self-published several paperbacks and all of them sold more copies than "Nod Away 2". Self-publishing isn't easy (you have to pay upfront for printing, distribution, keeping tabs on sales, etc.) but this just convinces me more and more that there's not much value in having a major publisher pick up your comic unless you get a very good deal upfront, including (and especially) marketing.
Insane, isn't it? I can only presume publishers are doing the best they can and that Fantagrahics would love to do decent marketing for all their books but don't have the cash.
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devin
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Post by devin on May 5, 2023 20:52:47 GMT
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