the famous trio: Joe, Chester & Seth

[manoopuesta]

I don't think this has been covered before in the forum. Do you have any preference for one of them over the others? I know they have very different styles and comparing artists is kind of senseless, but just for having some silly talk. I will start:

I have a preference for Chester Brown, his early work was a milestone in comics, I think. Also, he has kept producing consistently good work over the years (Mary Wept Over the Feet of Jesus is such a feat in comics, though I haven't ever finished reading the end notes...).

Joe Matt would go second, but I don't read his comics too often (he gets on my nerves). And Seth would be the last one just because his work hasn't completely clicked with me yet.

Btw, I always thought Joe Matt was the only one including the other 2 in his comics, I can't recall having seen any comics like that from Brown or Seth, but I just came across an ad for the D&Q anthology (#7) listing as part of their content: "Seth on Joe Matt".

I googled now and it seems there's a piece credited to Seth (and assisted by Brown) called: "Some Things I Think You Should Know About Joe Matt".

[junkflower]

I think, broadly, I like Brown the most and Joe Matt the least.

Brown has the most diverse and accomplished body of work, and the ways in which he's a weirdo are strangely sympathetic and interesting.

Joe Matt.... is fine. I don't have anything against the content of his work, I just don't find it that compelling, though as far as 90s autobio goes he still technically ranks high.

There are ways in which I think Seth is the least interesting, but also ways in which I like him the most. I think most criticism of Seth is based on his "character" and the fixations that come with it- but honestly Joe Matt's portrayal of Seth in Peepshow made me more interested in Seth as a man. He's much, much, much more self-aware than people give him credit for. Overall I "enjoy" Seth's work the most at face value, but I still haven't read Clyde Fans....

[robindh]

My ranking goes Chester>Seth>Matt, though I haven't read any of them extensively enough for that to be set in stone. Brown's art appeals to me the most, I like his early, slightly nervy stuff and the later Harold Gray/Herge stuff equally. I basically agree with Junkflower on Joe Matt, but his painted cover work is really nice. Seth is OK too, never really understood why he's so acclaimed but I don't hate him or anything. My favorite of his is, by far, George Sprott, though I haven't read Clyde Fans either, it doesn't really look like my thing at all.

[robindh]

Jul 1, 2023 14:37:33 GMT manoopuesta said:

Btw, I always thought Joe Matt was the only one including the other 2 in his comics, I can't recall having seen any comics like that from Brown or Seth, but I just came across an ad for the D&Q anthology (#7) listing as part of their content: "Seth on Joe Matt".

I googled now and it seems there's a piece credited to Seth (and assisted by Brown) called: "Some Things I Think You Should Know About Joe Matt".

Some Things is from one of those early Drawn & Quarterly issues isn't it? IIRC they basically just make fun of Matt for being a cheapskate. Chester Brown is in It's a Good Life, but Joe Matt is absent. I think that story is the only time Matt's been in a Seth comic.

[bluebed]

I feel like Seth's best work is yet to come. After he does everything he planned to do and stops worrying, we might see some kind of late-stage modest size comic that sums everything up, like Death of Ivan Ilyich, but Canadian. Going to reread the Great Northern Brotherhood tonight--I always liked the tone of that book, and it's nice when he allows his imagination and humor to come forward a little. He talks in interviews about a kind of hypnotic boredom that he's aiming for--I think that's at the heart of the work, not nostalgia, and there aren't a lot of people who nail that feeling in comics (Jason and Drnaso come to mind, in the sense that their stories come with their own sense of time).

Spent came close to exploring the nature of content addiction before youtube and everything--wish he explored it deeper, instead it's just a message in a pee jar. Never reread that book, but thinking back, it's scary how commonplace this kind of compulsive editing has become. Replace porn with tiktok, dark souls lore videos, reactions, compilations and whatnot, and half of the world has been Joe Matted...

As for Chester Brown, I really wish he persisted with Underwater. It made no sense to serialize it, and it's hard to judge the thing based on what we've seen (which I think is only a small portion of what was planned). But even if the whole project would've turned out to be his worst book, it would've been something truly original, and I would've been very happy with that.

[whitecomics]

I'd recommend the project of collecting Underwater issues to anyone - I completed a full run recently, never paying much higher than cover price. It took perhaps five years, you can of course do it more quickly if you turn to Ebay. Criticism of the work due to its slow pace (including by Brown himself, I believe that's more or less why he chose to abandon it) fundamentally misunderstand what is best seen as a study of mood and pacing. It's truly unsettling and strange in places, like Ed the Happy Clown without the zany humor.

Seth's big projects don't do it for me (I reread It's a Good Life recently, was even more underwhelmed than I'd expected; will think more about why that is and report back) but I do like his sketchbook comics. Here's a great Kevin H post about his rubber stamp work. The stamps are actually a very interesting and quite unique example of repetition in comics. Shades of Ida Applebroog.

I think I give Joe Matt more credit for his contribution to Gasoline Alley reprints than for his own work.

[whitecomics]

It's also of course hard to ignore how these three wacky friends are all completely unhinged, in their own ways. Chester's public Patreon posts about Covid are, uh, something.

[dominocorp]

Underwater, especially the Biblical back up stories he was doing, is one of my favorite comics of all time. I'd put that series up against anything else.

[robindh]

Jul 2, 2023 16:48:40 GMT whitecomics said:

It's also of course hard to ignore how these three wacky friends are all completely unhinged, in their own ways. Chester's public Patreon posts about Covid are, uh, something.

It's kind of funny that Joe Matt seems to have turned out the most chill, on Instagram he mostly posts about how much he loves his cat, which is very endearing.

[Paterson]

Jul 1, 2023 14:37:33 GMT manoopuesta said:

, I always thought Joe Matt was the only one including the other 2 in his comics, I can't recall having seen any comics like that from Brown or Seth, but I just came across an ad for the D&Q anthology (#7) listing as part of their content: "Seth on Joe Matt".

I googled now and it seems there's a piece credited to Seth (and assisted by Brown) called: "Some Things I Think You Should Know About Joe Matt".

That Seth strip is in the Peep Show collection just called Peep Show that collects all Matt’s tiny-panelled comics. And the other two show up briefly in Brown’s “Paying For It”

[milo1999]

Awful to hear about the passing of Joe Matt

[mamalips]

MariNaomi's Patreon post:

a letter from joe matt

today i learned that cartoonist joe matt, was found dead of a heart attack yesterday at his drawing desk. he's only 60 years old, and had been complaining of chest pains for months, but didn't want to (or couldn't afford to) see a doctor. fucking america.

joe's autobio comics were huge for me when i was discovering comics in the 90s. when i met him at the alternative press expo in 1997 or so, i asked him if he really pees in the sink, and then kicked myself for YEARS for having no filter.

i needn't have worried. when i moved to los angeles in 2014 or so and got to know him, it became clear that his filter is even more non-existent than mine was in my twenties.

joe was like a problematic, pesky little brother who was older than me. he was cheap as hell, just like he portrays himself in his comics, but maybe even moreso. when we met at a fancy bakery, he brought his own coffee and cookies, which he even offered to share. he used bubble wrap to protect his new-to-him cell phone.

joe said the damndest things in his surprisingly mild-mannered, friendly way, and despite being cringe, he was also charming and entertaining. like, one time in 2019, he came to my DRAWING POWER (diane noomin's anthology about the me-too movement) panel at skylight books after attending a men's rights meeting. why was he at such a meeting, you might ask? well, i did ask him that, or maybe gary asked him. his response was that his friend had said there'd be free food there, which there was not.

when i introduced him to my fellow panelists, he got a chilly reception. i like to think that somewhere on a higher plane, ms. noomin is again staring at him icily as he enters a room.

right before i moved to los angeles, i taught an autobio mfa course at the california center of the arts. (maia kobabe, whose GENDER QUEER memoir is currently the most banned book in the usa, mentions this class in eir book) for it, i assigned joe's book THE POOR BASTARD, and joe was kind enough to do a short interview for my students. i share his response with you, for posterity.

Hey Mari!

First--I grew up outside of Philadelphia, in a small suburb called Lansdale, PA.

I've only had two real jobs in my entire life, and both were in Lansdale. The first was during high school--I worked at a Roy Rogers (a pretty crummy hamburger chain). And the second was at a hellish broom factory, for two summers during my first two years of college.
These were my only jobs that I've ever held with actual paychecks--with social security being deducted from them. And they taught me a crucial lesson--that basically I hated real jobs--the kind with co-workers, lunch breaks, and waking up early to drag my ass there. It all seemed like a cruel joke--a horrible extension of 12 years of regular schooling, followed by 4 more of college. It made truly question what life was for and what kind of life I wanted to lead. And my conclusion was: I wanted no part of what was deemed "a normal life." I renounced materialism in all forms--except for books, which I consider something altogether different--and to this day, at age 49, I'm still the same. I've never owned a car, cell-phone, computer, credit card, you name it.

Anyway, I digress. How did I start making comics? I just did. At age 24, after four years of college, I made a half-hearted attempt at starting an illustration career and failed almost immediately. Well..."failed without ever really starting" would be more accurate. Instead, I got an under-the-table job at a local comic shop--unloading the week's new comics on Tuesday night for $50. This covered my rent completely, which was $200 a month, back in 1986.

Here's where's I'm compelled to impart what I consider an important life lesson--

If you're lost, career-wise, and haven't a clue what to do wit your life--I think it's crucial to metaphorically "sit perfectly still and do absolutely nothing" for as long as possible. Jobs, friends--just about anything could be considered a distraction. But, if left to ones own devices (like I was) I think eventually one begins to hear their calling. Passions, interests--these things all lead you to it. And for me, it was just doodling in my sketchbook and eventually making autobiographical vignettes. You can't go looking for money or success--in fact, you have to act as if you already have those things and still don't know what to do with yourself--and then it'll come to you. At least that's how it happened for me.

Anyway, my early influences were obviously Robert Crumb, Harvey Pekar, and the most perfect graphic novel ever created--Art Spiegelman's MAUS. These three guys were The Holy Trinity of Autobiographical Comics to me, and in many respects they still are.

I naturally grew to love hundreds of other cartoonists' work--and these, I believe break down nicely into three simple catagorys: 1) Newspaper Comic Strips 2) Comic Books 3) Alternative Comics--which is another way of saying "living cartoonists" because really--the other two catagorys I now consider "dead."

As for "anecdotes about making comics"--I'll always remember the time I showed my first issue of PEEPHOW (Chapter 1 in "The Poor Bastard.") to Chester & Seth and asked them to proof read it. We met in a coffee shop and I handed them each xeroxes of my comic, and almost immediately, they had the same reaction--they howled with laughter at my punctuation. They both quickly noticed that I literally ended every sentence with an exclamation point--and never a period. This, as it turned out, was the same way Stan Lee wrote every Marvel comic he ever scripted--all with 100% exclamation points.

In short, this led me to re-evaluate every single dot (literally) that I put on paper. The power and effectiveness of just the single, tiniest mark, in ink, began to reveal itself to me. I studied everything from Schulz to Spiegelman and noticed things I'd never seen before--punctuation, capitalization, bold lettering, underlined words, word balloons--touching the frame, overlapping each other, or simply floating alone--it all began began to intrigue me in a way it hadn't previously. "WHY had these cartoonists made such specific decisions?" That's really the crux of studying strips. The decisions may have been instinctual, but in the right hands, one could see where they were masterful. And conversely, in the hands of inferior cartoonists, poor decisions jumped out as well. And ultimately, I concluded everything was just a simple matter of TRYING HARDER.

Cartooning is a very deliberate, methodical profession. Much like playing chess. And I believe it should be approached with a great deal of patience, thought, and effort. (That being said, I also hate to work! It's a bitch--especially when one keeps demanding more and more of oneself. But I digress.)

And while I just spoke of some of the visual aspects of cartooning--there's also the INVISIBLE aspects to consider as well--mainly story-telling and other "not-so-visible" decisions.

Consider this: You have 300 pages to work with, and on those pages you can literally depict ANYTHING. You can depict standing in line for a coffee for those entire 300 pages, or you can cover the fictional lives of generations of a small town--like Gilbert Hernandez's PALOMAR. Add to that--the transition between ANY two panels can cover a nano-second or a thousand years. Or 20,000 years. Or six days. Or 3 hours. One can quickly be overwhelmed by the choices.

The point I'm trying to make is: everything really boils down to HOW a story is told...much more so than WHAT is being told. And that "how" can be pretty ambiguous. Like a good comedian--it's not the joke half as much as the way it's being told.

Anyway, getting back to your questions...

No, I haven't spoke to Trish in over 20 years. She went on to get married and have children with someone other than me. As for her "feelings about being written about"--I can't say what they are. Whether or not they've changed though is inconsequential to me. In fact, anyone's thoughts or feelings about being depicted, I believe, is always out of ones realm of control. I mean, as a writer, you can second-guess or worry about someone's reaction---but ultimately I think that's a mistake. It impairs and inhibits good writing--plain and simple. Besides, you can't please everyone--so you may as well please yourself. (Talk about a cliche. Sorry.)
As for rejections and accompishments in the field of comics--all I can say is: if you're working in the field of b&w, independent comics--and you're a competent cartoonists--getting published shouldn't be that difficult. WHY? Because there's not a lot of money in it. All a publisher has to do, once they've agreed to publish you, is solicit and gather enough orders to break even on their printing costs. They might even offer you a ridiculous low royality rate, especially on the first half of the print run, just to ensure that they recoup their printing costs all the more quickly. In short--they have less to lose than you do--especially if they never cough up an advance. And I've never seen a single advance on ANYTHING in my entire life. (The bigger and more popular you are, the more likely you can ask for or may be offered an advance, simply because a publisher will want to "lock you in." It's the classic CATCH-22---those that least need an advance are the most likely to be offered them.)

Anyway...my point remains--if your work's good--if your lettering and depictions of things is clear and pleasing to the eye, and if your innate sense of composition is good--it really shouldn't be that difficult to find someone willing to publish you. This is, obviously, just my opinion. But--if you were to find it difficult, I would say there's likely a reason, and you could probably stand to benefit from some constructive criticism.

Which leads to my next point--you've GOT to have a tough skin if you're trying to put something out into the world. It just comes with the territory. And if you really care about your work, you'll gladly listen to others assessments of it--whether you're in agreement or not. Either way, you'll benefit.

As for accomplishments---this may sound like an old, tired, true-ism--but really, the work HAS to be its own reward. There's no other way to view it. Especially if you're putting your best foot forward and doing your absolute best.

Money, good reviews, praise--whatever--sure, everyone loves that stuff, myself included--but really, public response to a piece of art is no barometer or indication of quality...at least I don't think so. It's all subjective anyway...isn't it? I mean, for myself--my opinions are FACT, but everyone's certainly not in agreement with me.

Anyway, for me, the thrill of accomplishment really comes when I first hold a new book of mine in my hands. It's like a child because it is a bid for immortality. And if it's as good as you can make it, and the printer didn't screw anything up--there's no better feeling on earth as far as I'm concerned. Sales are irrelevant at this point. Just to have MADE SOMETHING...and to know you tried your best...it's all out of your hands after that....but THAT'S the accomplishment--nothing else.
As for your last question--no, I don't do anything in life with the intention of writing about it later. There's TOO MUCH to write about as it is. Everything and anything is up for grabs--subject matter-wise. The nice thing about being a cartoonist/author is that YOU get to choose what to write about--what's important to you. No one else gets to dictate that. And often, what may appear to others as a "big deal" may not be the best subject matter for you. You have to care about what you write about, more than anyone else, for the best results...because, again, it'll be the WAY you tell your story that matters most.

Oh, and WHY did I move to LA? The answer to that question will be covered in depth in my next book. And to speak about it first would only take away from my motivation and energy to depict it. It's a proven fact--talk is cheap, and I'd advice any writer not to speak of their work before doing it. It's death to the process.

Okay, speaking of death--I guess I'm done here!

Thanks, Mari! Take care!
~Joe

[Paterson]

Amazing letter, Thanks for posting that.

[pentimento]

It's like Clowes said, if there's a new issue of Peepshow, it goes on the top of the pile. Almost impossible not to read, like Bushmiller's Nancy. Matt was the least pretentious of the three, by far, and the most relatable (not that that's necessary to make an enjoyable, interesting comic) if possibly the least talented.

Brown is a wonderful cartoonist, absorbing Harold Gray and Jack Kirby in equal measure, and wedding his style to utterly strange content, or universal content told in an utterly strange way. The most naturally gifted cartoonist of the three. I like his gospel adaptations best. Must be nice to get government grants and welfare to fuck an endless parade of whores - Oh Canada!

Seth, what a phony shithead this guy is. Not without talent, but whatever charm his work had (much of it borrowed from Vellekoop, as others have mentioned here) has been reduced to a Brunetti-esque diagrammatic formalism, to tell Canadian Nationalist propaganda and old-timey -never-was nostalgia snoozefests. Dude lives his whole life as cos-play, very embarrassing. There's thousands of people on youtube now doing the same thing: living in a 1950s house, dressing like Lucille Ball, driving a 57 Chevy, whatever it takes for clicks, babes. There was a couple who lived in Port Townsend WA who did the same thing:



Like, does she use a hand-carved wooden dildo, or what? What kind of phone do these "rockabilly" cos-players on youtube use? It's all embarrassing. C'mon Gregory Gallant, even your original name was infinitely better than "Seth," who are you kidding.

[slugfizz]

First-- I admire Seth's commitment to cosplay. I'm too self-conscious to wear anything but lumpy brown sweaters and stretch pants when I leave my apartment.

The Toronto Three has romantic appeal.* Even the bumps in their friendship road seem idyllic.

My friends are great but they don't read any freakin' comics!

Favorite: "The Poor Bastard" by J.M.

"It's a Good Life if you Don't Weaken"-- best title. Maybe ever? S.
"I Never Liked You"-- title is a slap in the face. I remember the cashier frowning down at it when I bought it. CB.

*Sala, Clowes, Tomine likewise