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Post by grubcubman on Nov 20, 2023 13:43:19 GMT
I do think that getting small racks/shelves into places like coffee shops and thrift stores and weed/vape shops would be a step in the right direction. Just chiming in to say Wakeup Comics does this at a record store in Nashville and I think it's really cool. Just a couple of shelves of worthwhile comics, curated by one guy.
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Post by jporcellino on Nov 20, 2023 15:15:13 GMT
That fucker still owes me money, though! Wha-hey, now -- what?
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Post by awfulquiet on Nov 20, 2023 16:51:46 GMT
Its all fucked up. There's no clear path or answer. The confluence of great art and popular success will never again occur in comics, intentionally or accidentally (organically). Big Boy Spurgeon was fond of saying, in the last years of his blog, that the audience for sm(art) comics was - or maybe should be - a few thousand dedicated people, often comparing it to contemporary poetry. Well, turns out he wasn't so wrong, as some of the sales figures for FBI (to say nothing of the more esoteric publishers) bear this out. Even Marvel and DC sales are maybe 10% of what they were 25 years ago (and how many of those sales are the intertial residue of aging fans, or hate-reads?) and exist merely as copyright placeholders at this point. And when you look at the numbers for, say, Blu-ray releases of cult (but well-loved and well-known) films from any label (of which there about three dozen in America alone) other than Criterion, you'll see that it's only slightly more than comics: generally 3 - 10,000 copies are pressed. And that's with existing, proven properties in a more popular medium - good luck pushing new comics work by new creators on readers. Gone are the days when life-long gimmicks like Cerebus could sell 30,000 (!) copies a month, and carry along utter garbage like Martin Wagner's Hepcats in its wake. Even something like Elfquest, which you would think would sell like hotcakes in today's fantasy-obsessed pop culture, probably would sink like a stone, despite Wendy Pini's gorgeous drawing. Rare exceptions like Ed "Kirk Lazarus" Piskor's Hip Hop Family Tree are a gross fluke, the result of Barnum-style hucksterism antics by its creator, and an indiscriminate audience of easy marks conditioned by hundreds of similar (though less well-crafted) "Wikipedia" bio comics (as others here have said here, using at term I first dropped in the comments over at TCJ). Outfits like Hollow Press are niche, despite and because of their merits, and will lead nowhere, however fervent their fans. Sorry! What's sad is that in 1980, the same audience of hundreds of thousands who played Dungeons & Dragons, etc. would have dug shit like Matt Brinkman, et al. Today? There is some kind of disconnect, the audiences and fandoms are fractured and insular. I blame the internet. Fuck the internet. The general audience just does not like comics. Heck, most of them don't even know how to read a comic book page, even if it's a simple as Kirby's six panels, or Ditko's nine, or as obviously rhythmic as Kurtzman. ...what was the question? All right, put up or shut up time. Post your zines.
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Post by argethebarge on Nov 20, 2023 17:24:07 GMT
I do think that getting small racks/shelves into places like coffee shops and thrift stores and weed/vape shops would be a step in the right direction. Just chiming in to say Wakeup Comics does this at a record store in Nashville and I think it's really cool. Just a couple of shelves of worthwhile comics, curated by one guy. i saw this and think it’s a cool idea, id like to see more of it. wonder if i can find anywhere i could try to do something like this
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Post by pentimento on Nov 20, 2023 18:28:36 GMT
Its all fucked up. There's no clear path or answer. The confluence of great art and popular success will never again occur in comics, intentionally or accidentally (organically). Big Boy Spurgeon was fond of saying, in the last years of his blog, that the audience for sm(art) comics was - or maybe should be - a few thousand dedicated people, often comparing it to contemporary poetry. Well, turns out he wasn't so wrong, as some of the sales figures for FBI (to say nothing of the more esoteric publishers) bear this out. Even Marvel and DC sales are maybe 10% of what they were 25 years ago (and how many of those sales are the intertial residue of aging fans, or hate-reads?) and exist merely as copyright placeholders at this point. And when you look at the numbers for, say, Blu-ray releases of cult (but well-loved and well-known) films from any label (of which there about three dozen in America alone) other than Criterion, you'll see that it's only slightly more than comics: generally 3 - 10,000 copies are pressed. And that's with existing, proven properties in a more popular medium - good luck pushing new comics work by new creators on readers. Gone are the days when life-long gimmicks like Cerebus could sell 30,000 (!) copies a month, and carry along utter garbage like Martin Wagner's Hepcats in its wake. Even something like Elfquest, which you would think would sell like hotcakes in today's fantasy-obsessed pop culture, probably would sink like a stone, despite Wendy Pini's gorgeous drawing. Rare exceptions like Ed "Kirk Lazarus" Piskor's Hip Hop Family Tree are a gross fluke, the result of Barnum-style hucksterism antics by its creator, and an indiscriminate audience of easy marks conditioned by hundreds of similar (though less well-crafted) "Wikipedia" bio comics (as others here have said here, using at term I first dropped in the comments over at TCJ). Outfits like Hollow Press are niche, despite and because of their merits, and will lead nowhere, however fervent their fans. Sorry! What's sad is that in 1980, the same audience of hundreds of thousands who played Dungeons & Dragons, etc. would have dug shit like Matt Brinkman, et al. Today? There is some kind of disconnect, the audiences and fandoms are fractured and insular. I blame the internet. Fuck the internet. The general audience just does not like comics. Heck, most of them don't even know how to read a comic book page, even if it's a simple as Kirby's six panels, or Ditko's nine, or as obviously rhythmic as Kurtzman. ...what was the question? All right, put up or shut up time. Post your zines. Fuck you, cunt. My zines and minicomics are from three decades ago. You think I still have copies? Ha! Long sold out. And I can't discuss the medium and industry unless I "put up"? Are my papers in order? Typical scenester gatekeeping by douchebags like you is the problem with "alt culture". Get fucked, rimjob.
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Post by alaird on Nov 20, 2023 18:32:32 GMT
"Anyone who can't piece together the past (a mere 25-50 years history, in this case) with all the tools at their disposal right now, is beyond help." Wait...what are we talking about then? What's interesting about comics as a whole being beyond Fanta/D&Qs scope? Gilbert Hernandez selling books and making a decent living? What do readers who "will contribute nothing to the medium" have to do with any of this? It seems more like you're saying the only people who matter in comics are the obsessives, people who have 'put in the work' though, God forbid, not in the wrong way. What do actual readers (people who aren't buying things as a duty but instead as a pleasure) need to contribute beyond reading the books and (hopefully) having some form of reaction to it? 90% of CK listeners will buy one Gilbert book and never read another, but 10% will have an opening (the other 90% helps the stores though, which is pretty important). I'm not interested in obsessives, they're the death of any artistic medium if that's all thats left. For people to support themselves modestly, and for artists/thinkers who have things to say artistically/critically beyond fetishistic appreciation of the form, the 10% that sticks around is pretty crucial. yeah im gonna jump on this and say....is there an actual "definitive" history of zines/underground comics that doesnt feel like a circle jerk fest? I'd be fine even to read a circle jerk fest a tiny bit (like a Meet Me In the Bathroom type book lol) if anyone has a good recommendation. And like what Brian said, so much stuff hasn't even properly gotten its day in the sun from the last 30 years alone, so I have time believing there is a definitive history online... I agree with Austin too, I feel more alienated (and felt alienated when getting into comics) from wanting to learn more when there's an attitude of completionism and obsessives name dropping stuff that means nothing to me without any proper contextualization. It's a general problem with indie comics, and what made the last 10 years such a good entry point for a lot of people, such as myself.
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Post by mamalips on Nov 20, 2023 19:40:22 GMT
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Post by arecomicsevengood on Nov 20, 2023 20:46:26 GMT
I haven't read Pudge, Girl Blimp but relatively recently I made the effort to track down the Zatanna miniseries Lee Marrs wrote with Esteban Maroto art- sadly not very good.
I would say "It sucks this thread got derailed" but what's funny is there is this full circle quality to it: One of the reasons relatively recent history gets lost, and there isn't a definitive history, is because so many people read the same things even in these deep niches, so of course things are going to get lost and slip through the cracks, where you're not even able to find a trustworthy review for certain things. At least mainstream comics have like comicbookdb (now defunct) or comics.org so you can find out, say, every comic David Mazzucchelli ever drew and crossreference it with mycomicshop. If you have a mini from, IDK, ten years ago, there might not even be a way to find out if the person who made it ever made anything else.
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Post by teemcgee on Nov 20, 2023 21:16:12 GMT
I haven't read Pudge, Girl Blimp but relatively recently I made the effort to track down the Zatanna miniseries Lee Marrs wrote with Esteban Maroto art- sadly not very good. I would say "It sucks this thread got derailed" but what's funny is there is this full circle quality to it: One of the reasons relatively recent history gets lost, and there isn't a definitive history, is because so many people read the same things even in these deep niches, so of course things are going to get lost and slip through the cracks, where you're not even able to find a trustworthy review for certain things. At least mainstream comics have like comicbookdb (now defunct) or comics.org so you can find out, say, every comic David Mazzucchelli ever drew and crossreference it with mycomicshop. If you have a mini from, IDK, ten years ago, there might not even be a way to find out if the person who made it ever made anything else. I'm always appreciative of the French site bulledair.com for this reason; it's built on mid 90s internet architecture, but provides a catalogue for by only every bound book provided by a French comics artist, independent or otherwise, but also a tab that details every anthology appearance they've made.
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GHO
Full Member
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Posts: 196
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Post by GHO on Nov 21, 2023 6:40:40 GMT
Additionally, artists have fully realized the creative and financial benefits of self-publishing, and serial publication. In a way, that leaves the "minor leagues" to the people who know it best... the artists themselves and the hardcore readers. All in all, not a bad way to do things. And they've provided a model for younger cartoonists to explore/follow/adapt to their own needs. It's a dang Golden Age! I think one good example of a publisher collecting new and engaging work and getting into the "bookstore" niche is Brian (Bubbles, this brian) the new book, Zoo by Anand is a great object to behold next to the rest of the Graphic Novels and Collections in the comics section at Strand. And the cover's ALOT more interesting than most of covers i've seen from "the little big two" as of late.
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GHO
Full Member
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Post by GHO on Nov 21, 2023 7:07:57 GMT
But who on earth in this day and age doesn't already have context, or is unable to discover it online or via libraries? What I see is, frankly, two full generations of youngsters who are resolutely incurious about the past, and/or seemingly incapable of sorting it out without the "help" of gradeschool-level guidance like Kayfabe. Jesus fucking christ. as someone who is friends with cartoonists in their 20's I can assure you they are reading old comics and consuming pieces of media from "before the computer existed". The only difference is young cartoonists no longer have to follow the traditional american cannon. and can build their own history and language of cartooning. with the thousands of reprints, and digitized library books from around the world. EXAMPLE EXAMPLE
I'm so sick of hearing this kind of shit
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Post by BubblesZine on Nov 21, 2023 14:17:42 GMT
yeah im gonna jump on this and say....is there an actual "definitive" history of zines/underground comics that doesnt feel like a circle jerk fest? I'd be fine even to read a circle jerk fest a tiny bit (like a Meet Me In the Bathroom type book lol) if anyone has a good recommendation. And like what Brian said, so much stuff hasn't even properly gotten its day in the sun from the last 30 years alone, so I have time believing there is a definitive history online... Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it.
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Post by jporcellino on Nov 21, 2023 14:50:20 GMT
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luke
New Member
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Post by luke on Nov 21, 2023 16:13:32 GMT
I'v always thought of Duplex Planet as a zine deserving the big coffee table book treatment. Seems like an obvious publishing slam dunk.
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Post by alaird on Nov 21, 2023 16:21:10 GMT
yeah im gonna jump on this and say....is there an actual "definitive" history of zines/underground comics that doesnt feel like a circle jerk fest? I'd be fine even to read a circle jerk fest a tiny bit (like a Meet Me In the Bathroom type book lol) if anyone has a good recommendation. And like what Brian said, so much stuff hasn't even properly gotten its day in the sun from the last 30 years alone, so I have time believing there is a definitive history online... Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it. Oh yeah i totally agree. it's what attracted me to the world, coming from self-serious film school kids. when there's no money pressure, usually there's more support amongst people! Any big revelations or interesting details from reading those histories?
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