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Post by BubblesZine on Nov 21, 2023 16:52:33 GMT
Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it. Oh yeah i totally agree. it's what attracted me to the world, coming from self-serious film school kids. when there's no money pressure, usually there's more support amongst people! Any big revelations or interesting details from reading those histories? It's silly but reading the Mark Perry interview, he did this og punk zine called Sniffin' Glue from 1976-77, he said in the book "we weren't trying to look like shit, we did the best we could... they think Sniffin' Glue looks grungy because we wanted to look grungy, but I always did the best I could. It happened to catch the zeitgeist of the time - the punk aesthetics if you like" This is one line from the 400 page book that stuck with me, there's more for sure. But I guess I enjoyed chewing on the idea of making zines look like the past because we think that's how it should look. Heavy xerox style to give it an edge or something, when in reality maybe we should be doing all we can with the tools we have. And you can apply this to all art. Trying to find that balance of learning from the past and pushing into the future and laying new ground. Another good interview on this topic is the Ed Hardy interview in Modern Primitives by V. Vale
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 17:38:50 GMT
But who on earth in this day and age doesn't already have context, or is unable to discover it online or via libraries? What I see is, frankly, two full generations of youngsters who are resolutely incurious about the past, and/or seemingly incapable of sorting it out without the "help" of gradeschool-level guidance like Kayfabe. Jesus fucking christ. as someone who is friends with cartoonists in their 20's I can assure you they are reading old comics and consuming pieces of media from "before the computer existed". The only difference is young cartoonists no longer have to follow the traditional american cannon. and can build their own history and language of cartooning. with the thousands of reprints, and digitized library books from around the world. EXAMPLE EXAMPLE
I'm so sick of hearing this kind of shit Well, anecdotally, I know several cartoonists in their 20s who outright disparage the Hernandez Bros. (without even reading the book - or, frankly, having read any Archie comics) saying "it looks like Archie comics" and also refuse to get into Crumb at all because of one or two of his more inflammatory images/titles. That's their ignorance and fragility on full display. As I said in an earlier post - unfamiliarity or refusal of previous work can be GOOD and help produce new work. What bothers me is kids making things and acting as if they were the first to do so. That's happened for centuries in all mediums, but it is more pronounced the last 20 years (which, yes, coincides with "before the computer existed").
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 17:58:21 GMT
yeah im gonna jump on this and say....is there an actual "definitive" history of zines/underground comics that doesnt feel like a circle jerk fest? I'd be fine even to read a circle jerk fest a tiny bit (like a Meet Me In the Bathroom type book lol) if anyone has a good recommendation. And like what Brian said, so much stuff hasn't even properly gotten its day in the sun from the last 30 years alone, so I have time believing there is a definitive history online... Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it. As someone who is featured on Mark Maynard's page, and whose work appeared in at least one other zine history book (without my permission) I can assure you that 99% of all zinesters from that era (and certainly those active today as well) want the opposite of "fade away into dust" as far as their work is concerned. They'd LOVE to be part of the "canon" and they'd love the permanence of a book collection, especially from an evil major publishing house, if it meant more money. It's to Aaron's credit that there really hasn't been a huge, mainstream collection of Cometbus, as it certainly deserves it. But people everywhere in zines DO say "you must read it" and I guarantee his sales numbers are amongst the highest, even now 25 years after the 90s zine "revolution" so maybe he doesn't need it. No idea. Also, this business of demolishing the canon is wrongheaded as hell. ADD to it (women, people of color, outsider art, etc.) all you want, but to minimalize people like Crumb, etc. is just moronic, regardless of issues with his work. You guys must know about The Poopsheet Foundation, yeah? poopsheetfoundation.com/This guy (Rick Bradford?) ordered everything I put out, and presumably everything EVERYONE put out, and has done good work cataloging it. It's not 100% complete, obviously, but it's a great resource.
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Post by colinprojects on Nov 21, 2023 18:11:56 GMT
Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it. As someone who is featured on Mark Maynard's page, and whose work appeared in at least one other zine history book (without my permission) I can assure you that 99% of all zinesters from that era (and certainly those active today as well) want the opposite of "fade away into dust" as far as their work is concerned. They'd LOVE to be part of the "canon" and they'd love the permanence of a book collection, especially from an evil major publishing house, if it meant more money. It's to Aaron's credit that there really hasn't been a huge, mainstream collection of Cometbus, as it certainly deserves it. But people everywhere in zines DO say "you must read it" and I guarantee his sales numbers are amongst the highest, even now 25 years after the 90s zine "revolution" so maybe he doesn't need it. No idea. Also, this business of demolishing the canon is wrongheaded as hell. ADD to it (women, people of color, outsider art, etc.) all you want, but to minimalize people like Crumb, etc. is just moronic, regardless of issues with his work. You guys must know about The Poopsheet Foundation, yeah? poopsheetfoundation.com/This guy (Rick Bradford?) ordered everything I put out, and presumably everything EVERYONE put out, and has done good work cataloging it. It's not 100% complete, obviously, but it's a great resource. Didn't know about this, very cool.
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 19:47:13 GMT
I wish more small press people were weird. I hate all this "sense of community" BS! Save that glad-handing and backs-slapping and sack-scratching for the big boys like Eric Reynolds (love 'em! nicest guy in comics) and whoever else is gaming their career.
And please, no need to patronize me by suggesting I have anything interesting to say.
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 19:48:39 GMT
Whoa! Where did the dude's comment go? We were having a nice rapport there for a second. Now my reply makes no sense... oh, what else is new
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Post by jporcellino on Nov 21, 2023 19:59:08 GMT
Whoa! Where did the dude's comment go? We were having a nice rapport there for a second. Now my reply makes no sense... oh, what else is new Hey man (?), check your messages! You said I owe you $$ and you're featured on Maynard's site -- don't make me go all detective!
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Post by grubcubman on Nov 21, 2023 20:10:54 GMT
Ha, I really wondered whether you'd be on here for the three-second window my comment was up. I deleted it because: who cares! But for the sake of our rapport, it was something like: All right, put up or shut up time. Post your zines. Fuck you, cunt. My zines and minicomics are from three decades ago. You think I still have copies? Ha! Long sold out. And I can't discuss the medium and industry unless I "put up"? Are my papers in order? Typical scenester gatekeeping by douchebags like you is the problem with "alt culture". Get fucked, rimjob. Lord, what a weird response. You know lots of people on here don't make comics at all? He wasn't asking to see your stuff because it's a requirement for having an opinion. He just wanted to see your stuff! Which you've mentioned on here, without anyone knowing what you're talking about, because your username is anonymous! And of course being anonymous is fine, too -- but you could just say, for example, that you'd be too embarrassed to have your real name connected to this terrible character you're cultivating with strangers (but not actually that strange, given the size of this community) on the internet. You have all these genuinely insightful observations, assessments, and perspectives and then pepper them with bizarre stuff like this. It's weird! -- Something like that. I do regret using the word "community," which has lost all meaning. Surely there's a middle ground between (1) glad handing and back slapping and (2) "fuck you, cunt"!
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 21:35:36 GMT
Whoa! Where did the dude's comment go? We were having a nice rapport there for a second. Now my reply makes no sense... oh, what else is new Hey man (?), check your messages! You said I owe you $$ and you're featured on Maynard's site -- don't make me go all detective! John, I may have mistaken you with the jagoff (forget who was?) from Wow Cool, so I am sorry to besmurf your good name. Heck, I still order stuff from Spit-&-Half a couple times a year, so obviously no worries. Soldier on, comrade!
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Post by pentimento on Nov 21, 2023 21:46:09 GMT
Ha, I really wondered whether you'd be on here for the three-second window my comment was up. I deleted it because: who cares! But for the sake of our rapport, it was something like: Fuck you, cunt. My zines and minicomics are from three decades ago. You think I still have copies? Ha! Long sold out. And I can't discuss the medium and industry unless I "put up"? Are my papers in order? Typical scenester gatekeeping by douchebags like you is the problem with "alt culture". Get fucked, rimjob. Lord, what a weird response. You know lots of people on here don't make comics at all? He wasn't asking to see your stuff because it's a requirement for having an opinion. He just wanted to see your stuff! Which you've mentioned on here, without anyone knowing what you're talking about, because your username is anonymous! And of course being anonymous is fine, too -- but you could just say, for example, that you'd be too embarrassed to have your real name connected to this terrible character you're cultivating with strangers (but not actually that strange, given the size of this community) on the internet. You have all these genuinely insightful observations, assessments, and perspectives and then pepper them with bizarre stuff like this. It's weird! -- Something like that. I do regret using the word "community," which has lost all meaning. Surely there's a middle ground between (1) glad handing and back slapping and (2) "fuck you, cunt"! If by "middle ground" you mean gentle caresses behind the ear with the blow-dried hairs of a Windsor Newton #3 sable and ASMR alphabetic recitations of the names of all the pre-Marvel Atlas monsters, that depends. Are you as handsome as Dash Shaw or Paul Pope or 25-year-old Mike Allred? Then YES. On the other hand, if you look like Jessica Abel or Johnny Ryan or Ethan Van Sciver, I will have to PASS.
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Post by BubblesZine on Nov 21, 2023 23:46:55 GMT
Speaking for zines only, I think one of their true joys is that unlike books, comics, music, movies, fine art, few people who make zines can point to the "greats" as inspiration. Zines fade away into dust and it keeps the medium fresh. Even in the digital age, a zine made 5 years ago are un-gettable and so people don't long for them as the proper way to do something. Yes I know there's some exceptions here, but you know what I'm saying. There's no one saying "oh you must read cometbus" like how people are insistent you must read Hemmingway, read Kirby, listen to The Beatles, watch Scorsese, or study Monet. Because no one ever got rich on zines like people have in these other artforms, ha! I say this to say that it's hard to write a history of zines because they don't always influence one another. I can't say I've ever read any book that's attempting to write about zine history, I know there is some and they might even have some decent information. That said, I really enjoy just first hand intreviews with people about their zines and their times in the culture. So I'll again shout out Mark Maynard's History of Zines and I also bought the book We Peaked at Paper: An Oral History of British Zines from Quimby's earlier this year and really enjoyed it. As someone who is featured on Mark Maynard's page, and whose work appeared in at least one other zine history book (without my permission) I can assure you that 99% of all zinesters from that era (and certainly those active today as well) want the opposite of "fade away into dust" as far as their work is concerned. They'd LOVE to be part of the "canon" and they'd love the permanence of a book collection, especially from an evil major publishing house, if it meant more money. It's to Aaron's credit that there really hasn't been a huge, mainstream collection of Cometbus, as it certainly deserves it. But people everywhere in zines DO say "you must read it" and I guarantee his sales numbers are amongst the highest, even now 25 years after the 90s zine "revolution" so maybe he doesn't need it. No idea. Also, this business of demolishing the canon is wrongheaded as hell. ADD to it (women, people of color, outsider art, etc.) all you want, but to minimalize people like Crumb, etc. is just moronic, regardless of issues with his work. You guys must know about The Poopsheet Foundation, yeah? poopsheetfoundation.com/This guy (Rick Bradford?) ordered everything I put out, and presumably everything EVERYONE put out, and has done good work cataloging it. It's not 100% complete, obviously, but it's a great resource. Yeah I mean I don't doubt that, it's their legacy. And a lot of those zines are amazing, I wish they were getable. I'm not saying they should fade into dust, or the people who make them want them to. But the reality is, most zines are un-obtainable. Poopsheet is cool but it's not the same as being able to buy and read a zine from 1995. I table at a lot of zine fests (not comics fests), organize one, most people making zines don't look back. For better or worse. Shining Life Press reprints a lot of great old punk/hardcore zines that you'd never find in the bins
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Post by robindh on Nov 22, 2023 18:45:38 GMT
I'm always appreciative of the French site bulledair.com for this reason; it's built on mid 90s internet architecture, but provides a catalogue for by only every bound book provided by a French comics artist, independent or otherwise, but also a tab that details every anthology appearance they've made. I love Bulledair, even if it's not totally comprehensive (very close, has practically everything the average user would want), also wish I could participate in their forums. With those types of sites I'm always tempted to contribute, but I feel like if I do I'll never stop lol.
If anyone here is into Spanish language comics and isn't already aware of it, I'd recommend tebeosfera.com, which hasn't failed me so far.
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Post by dominocorp on Nov 22, 2023 20:54:22 GMT
To be fair, confusing Marc Arsenault and John P (to the point of making accusations about money owed) is something EVERYONE does, especially those engaged in Talmudic study of TCJ.
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Post by pentimento on Nov 23, 2023 0:14:49 GMT
To be fair, confusing Marc Arsenault and John P (to the point of making accusations about money owed) is something EVERYONE does, especially those engaged in Talmudic study of TCJ. Marc Arsenault! That's his name. No, he was always an ass to me, in-person, on-line and wherever else we ever existed. So I'm not sure how I could have conflated him with a gentleman such as King-Kat. My Bad! "Arsenault" haha, sounds like someone who likes to do somersaults so he can whiff his own farts.
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Post by argethebarge on Nov 28, 2023 6:21:11 GMT
anyone read the new george wylesol book curses?
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